Author Topic: Dynos and combustion analysis  (Read 1325 times)


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Dynos and combustion analysis
« on: November 07, 2014, 06:50:19 AM »
Hi Oz,

I think a good tech environment is a great concept.

There is a forum that I frequented for some time using the nic dynoBullBusters. I did such a good job that I ended up with numerous PMs and folks were asking for help with all sorts of dyno issues. I revealed truths that were unknown about products like DTS and Superflow. Well, they were not really secrets, because those in the know, are aware of them.

My posts were pulling the highest ratings, at this venue which was run by a former Nascar engine builder. I have no idea how his engines performed but his little software simulation programs are a bit ordinary.

What did I have to do to get such high ratings?
I presented the logical truth and removed all of the snake oil, black art, smoke and mirrors.

I made a number of good friends from that site, people I have regular contact with today and all of them people who get results without breaking the bank. 

If there wasn't so much bull to bust, no one would have listened to a word I had to say.

People think that SF and DTS merged, but thats not true. Dynamic Test Systems Inc went broke, SF did not take it over, they can't. Go search it on the California SOS site. I maintain that history will be repeated and Arsenault will do for SF what he did for DTS.

What Arsenault did was to remove drawings, customer lists, patterns or anything that he thought had value, from an incorporated body which actually did own this property. He then swung a deal on the side to try to consolidate and get himself in a position where he could have another crack at it. The Californian govt would likely have a dim view of this web site:

If you have the Noscript plugin installed in your Firefox browser, you won't be redirected and you will get to read the full bull. The California govt have got Dynamic Test Systems Inc in jail. They are not a division of SF and have not merged with anyone. Arsenault simply removed patterns, drawings etc that Dynamic Test Systems Inc had already claimed as costs on their tax return forms, along with power, car expenses etc.

Did SF start offering checks to different vendors and individual contractors, to make good Arsenault's debt? Come on folks give me a break. I don't give a hoot if one corporation merges with another corporation, it happens every day, but deception is evil. Notice in the first sentence there is a whopping lie.   

SuperFlow Technologies Group, Des Moines, IA, is proud to announce a merger with Dynamic Test Systems (DTS) of Shingle Springs, CA.

Here it is again after legal correction:
SuperFlow Technologies Group, Des Moines, IA, is proud to announce a merger with [a name David Arsenault made up, a name that is not a legal entity of any kind whatsoever, a name that is deceptively similar to the name of a corporation which is in jail] in the state of California.

Engine researchers should be people who look for the truth. If you can make decisions based on the truth and a proper understanding of the physics involved, the race engine can be improved. If you make decisions that are going to cause detonation you are going the wrong way, you are not acting in truth. It is very possible that you think that you are moving toward truth, when the opposite is true.

I have not used that stuff a some years, I got to know Optrand through one particular job, it was OK stuff but it was not Kistler. As for Robert Bosch using it? I bet they don't use Optrand in their research dyno test cells!

It is not a matter of brand . . . Optrand vs AVL vs Kistler.
There are other manufacturers out there, a Russian instrumentation company that is very strong in this area of engineering. I love their stuff. 

As a general rule the pressure transducer has to generate some kind of an electrical signal in order to be useful. If you wanted to observe valve spring motion at high speed, would you use a Kodak box camera?

I have been out of it for a few years, but I happened to be visiting a world class cutting edge research establishment just last week, and what they were doing was pretty much the same as what was done a few years back. These folks are huge players in engine research and have a bucket load of patents which are licensed to pretty much every OEM on the planet.

I can go into the history of this kind of testing where the digitizer was about 12" x 12" x 12" and cost $100,000, but in todays money thats prolly $300,000? That instrument used an HP-IB [later GP-IB] cable and a GP-IB interface card that plugged into an HP-UX [unix] computer. The programming was done using Rocky Mountain Basic instrumentation language.

You can still buy the same computers from HP as a refurbished server and of course today, they run them on Linux. HP will provide full warranty and service contracts for these screaming 64 bit computers. When every other computer is broken, these things will be the last men standing.

What I am trying to say is this:
The technology has been available for a long time.

How long has Intel and AMD been peddling 64 bit computers? HP, Sun and IBM etc have been doing it since forever.

The rotary encoders for measuring crankshaft speed and crank angle position have hardly changed.

Whats changed is that a half serious local race program can now afford to use combustion analysis. I can remember when data acquisition was costing $1,600 per channel and 50 channels was about the minimum buy. Plus computer cost, plus software etc Only NASA, GE, Pratt & Whitney, etc could afford it.

How accurately do we want to measure the combustion pressure?
What is the smallest crank angle increment that the engineer requires when looking at the cylinder pressure?
How fast does the engine turn?
How accurate do you want to get? Is measuring a chevy bore with a 6" rule good enough?
What is the principal of the transducer?
Few sensors are linear, but is that important?
What kind of signal conditioning is required?
How do you actually test and calibrate the sensors?
Is it best to sample induction pressure and exhaust pressure at a certain point at a certain time?

After the engine is fully researched, and a 32 bit processor [MODERN ECU] is looking after the fuel, timing, valve timing, intake length, gear ratio, etc etc What is to be gained by monitoring combustion pressure other than on a research mule?

Do they want to protect the engine or are they after that last drop of fuel consumption?

Please allow me to mention Caterpillar.
The Europeans hate CAT, so Bosch, Volvo and Scania etc write a bunch of pollution rules which are more about putting the competition out of business, than improving the planet.

Dishonest American politicians are having their pockets filled by European shyster's dollars, to make crazy laws that do not improve the environment, but which destroy US industry. These wicked sinful concepts are hailed as great ideas, by a bunch of American lesbian politicians and dumb becomes dumber.

What good is an F22 Raptor or an F35 urinal?

When I pee and look at the stainless steel urinal that I am peeing against, I always think of the F35.

If the F35 were made by one company in one spot, the project would have never gotten off the ground. The success or failure of a flying military machine was turned into a marketing exercise where so many were lined up at the drinking trough. If you could execute a line of g-code, you too could be part of the project.

A recent war games held in Hawaii put these planes up against Sukhoi jets from Russia. The bottom line was that the American side would lose all of their planes within about 30 minutes. An Australian Air Force observer concluded that the match up was like clubbing baby seals to death with a base ball bat.

I have raised these news items to stimulate thought, things are not always what they seem. 

If its an Optrand like sensor, what do Bosch hope to achieve?
How fast do they want to read it?

Check this paper downloaded from optrand 10 mins ago.

Long-Life Fiber-Optic Pressure Sensors for Harsh Environment Applications
Wlodarczyk Marek T., Poorman Tom, Arnold Jacob, Coleman Terry
Optrand, Inc.
Plymouth, Michigan 48170, USA

That article is from 14 years ago, so Optrand is has not changed much.

Kistler has changed massively in this time.

Bleeding off pressure through a tube, via a drilling in a spark plug body is going to introduce error and there will be some kind of accumulator effect because of the distance/volume/pressure/temp/flow effects. Each factor will increase uncertainty. I have to conclude that if Bosch chooses Optrand over Kistler, it has nothing to do with Kistler performance in lab tests. Rather, cost is every thing and we don't need it to be that accurate in their case.

Kistler is the big name, but I would be happy to use Optrand in certain situations, where microseconds are less critical.

Choosing a combustion pressure sensor is not like going to the Coke or Pepsi fridge.

Oz has an interesting test engine, a friend designed the test engine that Orbital Engines used to sell, maybe they still do. Now he makes two stroke racing piston in a factory not far away.

Combustion analysis on an air cooled two stroke [air cooled so it heats up like crazy and it spins at around 20,000 RPM] so you don't have much time to get job done.

Have fun.